Well, one thing for sure, my last post actually engendered some comments. I must admit my surprise on this one. I honestly didn't think m(any) people actually read this blog. I am not not as surprised that not one single response in any way agreed with anything that I said.
In fact, one person has accused me of being disingenuous. It's not really an accusation of outright deception, but they are basically saying I have not been sincere or candid...
Which I think is fair for them to say. I'm not saying that I was doing anything but trying for sincerity and candor, but of course, how should they know that, if they feel my information is misleading? They don't know me, and so it makes sense, in a way, to assume that instead of being guilty of shoddy blogmanship, I am guilty of non-candor. So I have been thinking about that, weighing it up in my own mind, have I presented information in a way that is misleading? Maybe what matters is that people do seem to have all sorts of questions and complaints about what I have written. (or as in the case of my personal friends, gentle disagreement.)
What I have realized is that I was going about this in too rushed and haphazard a manner. Here in one post I have started a topic which really could (and has) filled books. I think that it was unfair of me to do that. I stand by my info, but I realize I better do some "splaining." Right Lucy? (Sorry, just dating myself.)
For instance: I was NOT trying to assert that each and every person who does yoga & meditation will absolutely have a problem like the ones I mentioned. I apologize if anyone got that impression. This is what happens if you rush a topic when you write about it. (but I HAVE spent some time reading about it, and looking stuff up. I think I need to also do some more.) So I am aware that 50,000 people could write in here and say "Hey, I do yoga and that never happened to me."
And judging by the last comment I got, I obviously need to do some explaining about the total and complete difference between the two definitions of meditating. My good ole dictionary says "meditate" means "engage in contemplation" and in particular, religious contemplation. I was NOT referring to that sort of meditating in connection with yoga. I was referring to the increasingly popular definition, which means entering an alpha brain wave state. This is scientifically verifiable. If you connect someone who is meditating in this sense to an EEG, you will see a recognizable alpha wave pattern.
Well, I wouldn't, of course. I mean someone who can read an EEG. Though I did see a video of it once, and I really could see the brain wave pattern totally dying down... You may have heard of this under the more common heading of "biofeedback" but again, NOT ALL biofeedback is measuring alpha waves. Sometimes it is measuring heart rate, blood pressure, etc.
Anyway, here is the place where I am most firmly convinced. I think that what is likely the most dangerous practice, and what I personally am most concerned about, is people practicing this form of meditation. I could, if I were smart enough and had that sort of time, write a book about the topic. It is a HUGE topic. So please, readers, do not put me in the stocks here, but bear with me just a little. I concede a need to better explain myself, to give you more documentation, and be more methodical. Give me some time, though, OK, and bear with the fact that it means I can't write the whole thing all at once. I'll take it in steps this time.
I put yoga and meditation together in my first blog, because that is often the way I find em. And the information I have found about "spiritual emergence" or "spiritual emergencies" also list yoga, and only yoga. There is no explanation of what kind of yoga, whether the yoga included meditation or not, etc. It is listed as an unintentional way of awakening kundalini or awakening awareness, as some prefer to call it. Since it is listed as being unintentional, it would seem to me that saying "only kundalini yoga will awaken kundalini" would be... well, not accurate to the info, right? (and yes, hatha yoga IS listed as a kundalini yoga, though I know it is also largely practiced as only being exercise, here in the "west". This is one reason why it is just really hard to say any specific yoga is THE kind.)
So, there are some things I will further write about. I might not get to this right away. I mean, I might blog about some other stuff, while I research more. For one thing, I AM going to get my hands on Del Pe's book and read it. I am also going to think about getting my hands on Stanislav Grof's book. I will blog about other stuff, then I will put up my next blog about yoga/meditation, then blog about other stuff, then put up yoga/meditation stuff. Because while I would like to do a better job of this, and while I think that at least the discussion is good, (even if people think I am nutso, or even worse, disingenuous) I do have other things I think about and want to discuss. This isn't primarily a yoga/meditation blog. I don't want to make it that. But I do want to treat the topic fairly.
And about poor Swami-J. I think his point was that yoga is religious. I don't think I read him wrong on that. I think he actually seems to me to be a bit offended that people call yoga "just exercise." In fact, I believe he wrote that (this is a paraphrase) calling yoga an exercise program is like calling Christian baptism taking a shower or having a bath. His argument is that either you are exercising or you are doing yoga, don't attach the word yoga to what is merely an exercise program. The word "yoga" is in itself a word with a religious derivation. I'm sorry my quote of him was misleading to you... I think in just putting yoga & meditation together in my blog, I was skipping a coupla steps of thinking, which was careless. I need to explain how I would connect yoga to a spiritual practice... in detail. :)
I confess that while I disagree with him on every spiritual belief he has, I empathize with him. If a group of atheist showed up at my church one day touting the health benefits of the Lord's Table, even though they didn't believe in God, or the resurrection, well, let's just say I'd have a hard time moving over for them and saying, "OK, join in!" Whether or not he is the only yogi to feel this way remains to be seen. That I respect his opinion about it, that I can say now.
But yes, that is HIS opinion (and mine). I acknowledge that some Christians would be so excited to see atheists in church, they'd see nothing wrong with it and say "Hey, join in!" And I will absolutely concede that some yogi's would welcome any and all beliefs to join in yoga, and suggest they'd have much the same motivation as those hypothetical Christians, which would be that half the battle was done in getting more people on board with the faith. (and yes, that is my opinion, you are free to disagree)
I do think you would have a pretty hard time finding a majority of yogi's who would say that the main purpose of yoga is exercise. But more on that later. Feel free, though, if you can actually find some, to let me know who they are. I sincerely would like to know, and so that I am being totally candid, go back and check your info. ;)
Here is what I see I need to break down and discuss as individual topics: is yoga a system of exercise, a spiritual practice, or both? What do the guru's really say about yoga? What is alpha brain wave meditation? Is it connected to yoga? What is a spiritual emergence/emergency? What about Christian yoga? Can you keep your own religious perspective and still practice yoga? Is there a trend in yoga growth, and what is it?
Now I hope I am not still going to fast. It is hard with a topic this vast, and one where I know everything I write will be highly controversial. Highly controversial. If you have never been the dissenting voice in a large group of enthusiastic proponents, I recommend it heartily. (ha ha ha ha...ah) So again, I ask your patience. Write me comments. Be (nicely) critical. I do have one request, though. My name is Karen. You may call me by name. And if you must comment anonymously (as I acknowledge some of you can't comment otherwise due to not having an account) could I ask that you sign it with a first name, either real or fake? I don't care which, but it's not much fun responding to "Dear anonymous...." ya know? Alias's are totally fine. Have some fun with it. But don't make me call you "anonymous," mmmkay?
You can have almost any faith/ belief system and practice yoga:
ReplyDeleteChristian Yoga: http://www.christianyoga.us/home.htm
Kabalah Yoga:http://kabalahyoga.com/
Jewish Yoga: http://jewishyoganetwork.org/
for example...
Thank you, Anonymous, for your comments. This is a topic I am intending to write about at another time. I appreciate that you put up the links, because I am interested particularly in what the Christian yoga site has to say. A friend of mine also sent me a connection to a site that asserted yoga was OK for any faith. I actually felt her site said more FOR my concerns than against em. But for sure, I want to see what the sites say, even if I don't agree.
DeleteSince you are saying that you can have a different faith, and still practice yoga, I am curious as to whether you then hold that yoga is "only" exercise for you, or if you believe that the spiritual side of it can be melded with all other faiths?
ps. if you write in again, can you please just humour me and tack on a name of some sort?
:)
Karen
My constructive criticism would be that you are clearly writing about a topic that you know very very little about, admittedly so.
ReplyDeleteTo have such strongly held opinions based on REVIEWS of books, having not even skimmed through the books yourself, makes you look a bit foolish and a lot ignorant.
What would your reaction be to someone speaking about Christianity having never set foot in a church or having never read the Bible? Don't like it? But wait, they have read book REVIEWS about books written by actual Christians! They've read on the internet that going to church can cause a person to hav strong emotional reactions, to speak in tongues and even to give all of their money away!
Religion is powerful, can influence people to do things they might not normally do, can be dangerous but I bet that doesn't stop you from attending your chosen church or praying to God.
And with that, I am going to go enter an alpha brain wave state, not induced by meditation or yoga but by television. Later I will say my nightly prayers which will also lead to an alpha state. In the morning I'll wake up refreshed and hopefully enjoy a lovely yoga practice.
Namaste
First of all, Namaste, thank you for giving me a moniker by which to address you! I appreciate that very much. :)
DeleteYou misunderstood me if you believe I hold my beliefs about yoga due to two books I have never read. That is for SURE not the case. I have read a book about yoga, but as it is written by a Christian and from a Christian perspective, I recognize that some will immediately write it off as being biased. I have also been reading other info and articles out there. Because I have (I hope) honestly and humbly admitted that I am not an expert and I have still room for further study, please do not think this means I have done absolutely no learning or studying about it.
My point with Del Pe's book, if you read my prior blog, was that I was pointing people who were interested in what I had to say, to read further on it. If you had read an article, for example, that said that the Atkin's Diet could be dangerous, and knew there was a book about it out there, would you not perhaps write on a blog that if someone were interested they could check out the book?
I agree with you whole-heartedly that religion IS a dangerous thing. I will even make a confession to you. There has been a time in the past when I feel I was irresponsible about how I shared my faith with people. I would list all the "positives," like that it gave me hope, that I found joy and strength in it, etc. etc. I painted the best picture of it possible.
Now, more and more, I have realized that I was, in that case, being disingenious. I was not being entirely candid.
And so now when I share about my faith, I do say the positive, but I also try to be entirely candid, which is that following Jesus also has a cost. I think it is worth it, but it does have a cost. As you said, it can cause people to give their money away. It may mean taking a stand for what you believe, even if other people believe and declare that you are ignorant and close-minded. Just as an example.
And I think, that when it comes to something like yoga, it is only fair that warnings are also given about it. :)
One thing I am curious about, Namaste: Do you consider yoga to be only a physical exercise for you, or is it also a spiritual practice? I hope you will feel comfortable writing back and letting me know.
Also, I think it is a very interesting point you have raised about TV and entering an alpha wave state! Good question, wonder if anyone has ever tested that? Seriously, now aren't you curious about it? Do you know of any studies on that?
Thank you for your comments. :)
Karen
Namaste is not actually a name or moniker but a friendly and respectful salutation commonly used in yoga.
DeleteIn answer to your question, my yoga practice is aimed at strengthening, restoring and uniting body, mind and spirit. I do not practice it as part of any religion.
I was going to add some links about all the activities that cause alpha brain waves including prayer, television and daydreaming but then I remembered this quote:
"But then I thought, "Why should I do your work for you?" I just want to make you think and truly look into it. If you really are open and fair and practicing this stuff, then you should be the one to "do your homework on it," so to speak."
Namaste,
Saraswati
Saraswati,
DeleteI actually knew that namaste was a salutation used in yoga, but I thought that you were being gently humourous and using it also as an alias to sign off your comment. :) Sort of a pun, as it were.
As far as prayer leading to alpha waves, yes, I have heard of that. But I suspect that the prayer it is refering to would be what is commonly known as "centering prayer." Unless, of course, prayer is leading to daydreaming.... :) I do not have a biofeedback machine in my house, so I can not say for sure, but my goal, at least, when I pray is that I am actively using my mind. Those who engage in centering prayer are actual practicing a form of meditation.
I am interested in the links about TV watching causing alpha waves, but you don't have to send it to me. I can try and find em myself. ;) I am trying to do my homework, honest. :)
One thing I find interesting is that you say you do not practicing yoga as a part of religion, but you also say it is, for you, not only about body, but also about "mind and spirit." Things about the spirit are sort of by definition spiritual, though of course, you can make a distinction between "spiritual" and "affiliated with a particular religion." What I am not as sure about is if you can say things that are spiritual are not in any way religious...
Here is the other thing I wonder... I wonder if there is a large group of people unaffiliated with any particular religion, but then they all believe and practice the same spirituality... would that not then actually be a religion...? What do you think? What makes something religious/religion?
And, Saraswati, if you don't mind sharing further, do you then NOT believe that yoga can transform you? Or make you not only physically better, but spiritually better? Like, perhaps an ethical code associated with yoga that you follow? Or do you have the belief that yoga can unlock an inner potential in you? I am asking these questions in all sincerity. I do know lots of people who do yoga, but most of then would say that is was "strictly physical."
Perhaps you are right in that the "alpha wave" state is the most or really dangerious one. I am not sure. It's not a topic that has been highly researched, is it? It's only just in the early stages... or am I wrong? I have found an article or two that write of going deeper into trance-like/meditative states, or sleep states, only awake...and that state that going a level or two deeper is where you really awaken all sorts of powers and abilities.
Is the alpha state itself dangerous? Or is the danger in that when you conciously put yourself there (as opposed to naturally) you may slip into a further state of unnatural sleep/wakefulness? Honestly, I don't know. So I am staying away from trying to slip conciously into it and unnaturally prolong it. And yes, there is evidence that conciously putting yourself into some form or level trance can have unexpect, and questionable results.
One place you will be in an alpha-wave state is also hynotism. I am not sure if you are in the same level of vulnerability as you drift off to sleep or not... I know for myself, if anyone speaks while I'm drifting off, I come back to full conciousness. But in any case, the fact that we are quite mentally vulnerable while in a hypnotic state is well documented. Or do you think I'm just talking outta my butt? :)
I think that yoga is absolutely a spiritual/religious practice. If you absolutely deny spiritual power, then of course, you'll not agree and will just think me bonkers. If you do agree and believe that there is a spiritual realm, that there are either powers, or a power, then you have no reason not to investigate the idea that those powers can be harmful as well as beneficial. Particularly if there ARE spiritual beings out there... they may not all be benevolent. What do you think?
Grace and peace to you,
Karen :)
You are contradicting yourself. In this reply you write:
Delete"Those who engage in centering prayer are actual practicing a form of meditation." And you distance yourself from this by saying your prayer is active-- you are actively using your mind.
But in an earlier post you say you meditate on God.
You need to decide if you do meditate or don't. And also don't forget your earlier emphasis on "unintentional side effects". Despite your active mind while praying (but not meditating), you may yet experience the "unintentional" dangers of which you write.
Signed,
Hugh G. Rection
I think you must have misunderstood me. Nowhere have I said I think alpha brain waves are dangerous. From what I have read on your blog and it's comments, it's you only who seems concerned about alpha brain waves as they pertain to yoga or meditation.
DeleteI think we are operating with very different definitions of the concept of spirit. You seem to be focused on the demons/deities definition. I am referring to the heart, soul, essence of a person that goes beyond their physical body. THE spirit vs MY spirit if you will.
You appear to be of the opinion that any activity or pursuit that can be transformational or spiritual that is not approached through Christianity is dangerous or wrong. It's not "bonkers" exactly, but a rather narrow view point.
Anonymous, please, I beg of you, read what I say carefully. I NEVER said you thought that alpha brain waves were dangerous. In fact, if you are indeed the anonymous who posted below (as it is hard to tell, since you refuse to use an alias), then I said I detected a hint of derision in your tone. Which means exactly that you DO NOT agree with me. OK?
DeleteBut as I am not sure which "anonymous" I am now refering to for sure, maybe that was not you??? If so, sorry, but I'm starting to lose the thread here. :) Once again (said with gentleness) I did request an alias for just that reason, so it is really not my fault now if I am confusing which person you really are.
In any case, I had it totally understood that NO ONE who posted on this blog, other than possibly "Bronte" and "Jenna" were in any way concerned with alpha brain waves. And me, of course! :)
Also, somewhere, in one of my responses to someone, I did take care to write power/powers out of respect that some people believe there is only one underlying... "force" (for lack of a better word, because I'm not sure which word you'd prefer). Some people even believe BOTH that there is an overarching universal power as well as spirit entities.
My point was that if you believe in a universal power, there is room there for dealing cautiously in encountering it. No? And ditto, of course, if you believe in spiritual beings.
I very much appreciate that not only you, but many, many other people would find my viewpoint "narrow." :) I'm not sure which is "worse" in how people see the label, to be bonkers, or to be "narrow." But I am sure that my viewpoint is narrow. I agree...
I do hope, though, that if you find me narrow, you also find me respectful, kind, open to discussion, and sincere. If not, then I am not living according to my narrow viewpoint's teaching on disagreement. That I will/would appologize for, as it is not my intention. I really am convinced of the truth of what I believe in, which puts me in an awkward position when it conflicts with what others believe. I find myself unable to logically accept relativism. You may pity me, if you like. :) But don't doubt, please, that I do care and am not vicious or mean spirited, but rather write my opinion here out of genuine concern.
You say you're Christian and you meditate on God. Can you share with us what you do so that when you meditate you manage to avoid those evil alpha waves?
ReplyDeleteDear "You who shall have no name." I guess you missed the part where I asked you to sign off with a name, even if an alias?
DeleteAh, no matter. I can still respond... :)
Did I detect a hint of derision in the words "avoid those evil alpha waves?" Methinks perhaps I did. Well, even so, fair question. But I think it would be better answered in a future blog. Which I promise you I will write.
For now I will say that when I meditate, I am (trying) to follow the dictionary definition, which involves not stilling my thoughts, but rather thinking deeply. It would be interesting to hook me up to an EEG, wouldn't it? Make sure I was not falling asleep. ;) Let me also say for the record that you do enter an alpha pattern, and then even deeper patterns, when falling asleep. But I think that is different from seeking out an alpha wave pattern (and even deeper, or maybe I should say "slower") while awake.
But I have said too much, in that I can hardly do it justice this way. If you are really interested, then please, you are welcome to come back anytime and check it out at a later date.
Karen
I would have signed my name as usual, but find it interesting that you go so far as to say that people need to put something. No one has to do anything like that.
ReplyDeleteI think you're not going to win anyone over with this, and just need to live and let live.
Move on already.
Well, really, it was a request, a nice request I thought. I gave my name and was asking for the same courtesy. I have commented on other blogs, and it's usually not a worry since I have a profile on blogspot, but if not, I try to remember to leave my name.
DeleteIf you choose not to leave your name, I still post your comment. It's just kind of a nice courtesy one would think you wouldn't mind doing. After all, it's not your real name I was asking for. I just don't like to say "Dear anonymous." If you mind, so be it. I find it interesting that I would have to request it, that people don't do it naturally, and that you would protest that I asked nicely for it.
As far as I know, I am letting live. Is this a petition to outlaw yoga? No. I respect each person's right to decide for themselves. As far as I know, we still do respect one another's right to opinions. And their right to discuss their opinion, particularly on a blog where no one is forced to listen, but chooses to be there. Whether or not I will "win anyone over," I am allowed to put up my thoughts for discussion, disagreement and clarification. Again, absolutely no one has been forced to come on to the blog and read it. I sort of thought it was a choice people made because they were interested in the topic, even if they disagree.
So, I welcome you on here. You are welcome to post comments. But why, on my own blog, should I not be able to discuss a topic fully? Isn't the "moving on" more for people who are tired of the topic, in which case they can just stop coming on here. I would think a suitable "punishment" for me, if you don't like what I post, to vow never to come on my blog again. After all, what is a blog if no one reads it? :)
Here is a question for you: What would you prefer I post about? What topic should I write about next that you would come back to discuss?
I hope you had a lovely weekend, Anonymous, and I do hope you come back, but only if you wish to, only if this is of interest to you, only if you enjoy discussing (and disagreeing) with me.
Karen
The close mindedness you are showing is really sad to have to read. That is why I suggested you move on. That's all.
DeleteI thought it was up to Jesus and your God to judge people? Yet you're handing out judgement by the tonne?
Why not post about your religion, about what makes it so great for you, what you believe and benefit from it. Instead of spending so much time 'attacking' others?
Dear Anonymous,
DeleteYou know, of course, that you don't HAVE to read it... right?
I would really like you to show me where on earth I judged people? or "attacked" others? If I have personally attacked someone or judged someone, please let me know. I am not perfect, and I will apologize..
As far as I can see, I was asking questions about a PRACTICE. A practice is not a person. I think I had some good, fair questions. You, obviously, do not agree with that. But questioning a practice is really not judging a person.
Instead of telling me that I am judging and attacking, why don't you put something a bit "meatier" into the discussion? Like why not add some thoughts about whether or not you agree/disagree that you can separate the spiritual side of yoga from the physical side? I'm interested in your opinions about that sort of thing, and I hope it is clear from my other responses to comments that I will indeed NOT be judging of you, or insulting to you, but try to be fair.
Yes, I could write about my faith, and I hope I have and will continue to do so. If that is your suggestion for posts to come, I appreciate it, and hope that I will be able to do lots of that. But if I honestly have concerns about a spiritual practice, if I really am worried about where it might lead to, if I have found evidence from some parts of the "yoga/meditation world" that contain warnings about it, then should I ethically just remain silent? If I heard a rumour that smoking was bad for you, should I never mention it to my friends, because they'd think I was "judging" them for practicing smoking?
Isn't the real issue whether or not the concerns made here are true or not? If they are not true, then it's good if I can find out and stop worrying about my friends/family. If they are true, then it really isn't about judging, is it? Unless you think that warnings on packages of cigarettes are judging...
Let me say, though, that if yoga/meditation is something you practice and hold dear, then I understand that this is upsetting for you. That part of writing this is the part I greatly dislike, I really don't enjoy upsetting people. I greatly wish I could put a warning up that didn't upset people who practice and love yoga. If you know a better way to do it, please let me know.
grace and peace to you,
Karen
I have no way of distinguishing one "anonymous" from another any more, but this is written directly to the one who said I was condradicting myself about meditating/not meditating. And anyone one else interested, of course.
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure that I did explain that part. But maybe somehow it was missed. I explained the dictionary definition, vs. the alpha wave kind. My dictionary is old, maybe a more recent one would have both definitions in it.
Let me just say this, from the sincerity of my heart. I would SINCERELY like to dialogue with you. A dialogue is a two way discussion. If you have no desire to do this, maybe just say so. Like maybe to be fair, just say in your comment "Look, what you said upset me, I totally disagree, I have NO DESIRE to discuss/debate it, I just want to get it off my chest that I think you are wrong, misinformed, or even ignorant" (might as well say it, it's already been said.)
Then I would feel sad, because merely upsetting people and getting them to call me ignorant is hardly the intention of this blog, but at least I would know that no response was necessary because you didn't have a genuine question/point for me to discuss. Let's just say that I would have closure.
And if you really sincerely feel that I am being illogical or contradictory in some way, then sign an alias for me to address you by so I can follow the conversation. I have stated my intention to blog about the different kinds of prayer/meditation and discuss further the whole "alpha-wave" idea. It is coming soon. Just give me some time, I am currently very busy writing comment responses. ha ha ha... :)
Oh, sorry, Hugh G Reaction, I think I got confused and addressed my prior response to anonymous, but it really was you who wrote it! My apologies! Sorry.
ReplyDeleteTake from the previous comment what applies, and disregard anything I said that does not. Now I am curious, though, if you have written in before, because you seem to have (sort of) been following some sort of thread. I really don't know how I missed that you signed your name the first time, but maybe it was "see no evil" in practice. ;)